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It seems Montreal thought they could haggle with MLS over the expansion fee. That's according to what came out of today's press conference in Montreal and this article in the Toronto Globe and Mail.
Here is an excerpt:
MONTREAL — The Montreal Impact are still interested in joining Major League Soccer, but “not at any price,” team president Joey Saputo said Monday.More here.The United Soccer Leagues club had its bid for a 2011 expansion franchise in MLS rejected last week for reasons still unclear to Saputo.
It especially irked the Impact that MLS commissioner Don Garber announced on Friday that Montreal had withdrawn its bid because it was having trouble raising the money, although Saputo said he later revised that statement to say the bid had not been retained by the league.
“I'm disappointed — the bid was taken out without explanation,” said Saputo. “Does MLS really want Montreal? I don't know.”
MLS was demanding a $40-million (U.S.) expansion fee, a fourfold increase from what Toronto FC paid to get in three years ago, plus an expansion of Saputo Stadium, which currently seats about 13,000.
Seattle is to join MLS in 2009 and Philadelphia in 2010, followed by two more teams in 2011.
Saputo said the Impact's bid was $45-million for the expansion fee plus the cost of adding a new grandstand. He said the club's proven record of drawing fans and putting a strong team on the field should have made the bid acceptable.
“We were OK with that (amount), without hurting where we are today and without hurting our plans for the future,” said Saputo, whose team has been an attendance leader in the USL and its predecessor, the A-League, for 15 years. “We thought we had a sound bid.”
He said paying the fee MLS demanded and enlarging the stadium would drive ticket prices past the point of being affordable for families.
And he questioned whether the six other cities still in the bidding for 2011 — Ottawa, Vancouver, St. Louis, Miami, Atlanta and Portland, Ore. — are really ready to pay $40-million (U.S.). He said some did not include a fee in their bids.
“Maybe the mistake I made was to put in a price,” he added.
What do you think? Should MLS have accepted the offer of $45 million Canadian ($36.5 million US by today's exchange rate) or was MLS right in refusing an expansion group which seemed to believe it could get in without upgrading its stadium to MLS standards?
I think they would enlarge the stadium to 20,000+ eventually. The Impact would have to. But in the end, would you rather have a full 13000 seat stadium, or a half empty 20,000 seat stadium (Columbus, Chivas). Alot of folks thought the Impact were a shoe-in, and there is certainly a lot of disappointment around North America after the announcement.
Would have been a great rivalry with Toronto, and who wouldn't want that?
I guess we can probably expcet Portland and St. Louis (I'd love to see Van-city make it) to make it in, since the other candidates are really sketch. Although, it would not surprise me a bit if either Atlanta (please no) or Miami (why?) make it instead.
Atlanta and Miami would be a horrible mistake. No passionate MLS fans out there.
It is definitely disappointing to see a good candidate go by the wayside.
The curious thing about Saputo's bid; however, is that he was willing to pay $36.5M and not $40M. The unwillingness to pay another $3.5M when you're already willing to pay $36.5M seems to me like an unwillingness to go all-in, an uncertainty about interest in expansion at all. Saputo wants to stay in the hand, but not match the highest bet, and Don Garber basically folded his hand for him.
There are still a couple of quality contenders in Portland and Vancouver and a few others who have the potential to be quality in Miami, Ottawa, and St. Louis. I am not sold at all on Atlanta as a realistic market.
Bon voyage, Montreal.
I'd rather have teams from only the United States. Your rivalry with Toronto? Well, that would be great in a Canadian league. Don't expect the promise of that rivalry to entitle Montreal to anything in MLS.
montreal knew the rules when it bid in the first place. why do they think they are so special? miami/ottawa/vancouver, et. al. did not have any problem with the expansion fee. saputo just didnt understand that joining the mls isnt as simple as a championship-premier league promotion. too bad, by smarting about it and acting like the mls needed him more than he needed the mls probably ruined any chance for the saputo group to join the league. sucks, cause montreal fans are the ones who suffer.
miami and st. louis. lets keep this round in the us. eventually get portland and vancouver in, just not now because we need to see if seattle is successful first before we put two more teams up there.
no passionate soccer fans in miami??? are you crazy, montana???
i like portland and vancouver for the expansion...would be great with the seattle buzz going around.
not to the rest...
To answer that guy who said he wants teams from the US and that a Toronto-Mtl rivalry would be for a canadian league... Well let me remind you that most of your US markets dont attract any fans. Hell Montreal is in the USL and it has a better attendance record than half of your american teams. And oh by the way, Toronto leads the way in fan support, So SHut your mouth!
Actually if I read that article correctly, the bid which Montreal submitted included the upgrades to the stadium. They're problem was that they felt that if MLS was going to demand that they upgrade their stadium then it should come out of the expansion fee.
With KC and SJ playing in smaller stadiums I can't say I disagree.
1. The exchange rate is not Garber's problem. 40 million was set a while ago, why did everything come out just now?
2. To anon 3:25.. Atlanta and Miami have no passionate MLS fans? Apparently Montreal has a rabid MLS fan base?
3. Montreal - you snooze you lose.
He's trying to haggle the price when the market will bear 6 other bids willing to pay it with the appropriately sized facility. It's called minimum requirements and they only drop if there are no suitors. Unfortunately for Montreal there's a few lined up. Cheapskate!
As for the comment re KC & SJ they are both in temporary facilities not permanent home facilities.
Fuck Montreal. Let's get some teams in the southeast. I am from Toronto and I can't understand why this pro Canada agenda by some. I want to see this league thrive and it won't thrive with a team from Montreal from an american standpoint. Miami and Atlanta/St Louis. No more West coast teams.. bad start times in the east
Alrite, the Impact's average attendance in 2008 was 12696 which is only better than Kansas City who plays in a small baseball stadium. That is only better than 1/14 of MLS teams which is less than 1/2. Also I disagree about Toronto leading the way in fan support. DC United, in my opinion has a more passionate fan base.
By, half the league did you mean 2 teams both of which sell out their small stadiums.
But your right there shouldn't be a problem with letting candian teams in. Impacts stadium is mostly made up with bleachers that is that upgrades they have to do. They have to upgrade their infrasturcture in the stadium.
Screw Canada,
Miami is almost a shoe in because of Barca and it makes more since if that happens to put a team in ATL. Because Miami is so far south the closest team is still roughly 20hrs away. Also Atlanta doesn't just pull from the immediate area you have to look at the surronding cities and also states.
MLS is concerned with "potential" growth in TV markets as opposed to putting teams in markets with traditional support for soccer. This is what happens when the people who run the league don't understand who their market is. MLS is and will always be a gate driven league. Putting teams in Atlanta and Miami will equal more of the same crap we have now, half empty stadiums that no broadcast cares about. Only 2 teams turned a profit this year, LA and TFC. MLS could have guaranteed a multi-million Canadian TV deal with the CBC instead it's going to get another crappy deal in the US. The NHL which is still bigger than the MLS stays afloat simply because of the 600mill that the CBC shovels it's way. It's simple really, bring the expansion fee down for owners willing to build in metro areas. At the very least, a place close to the city and with very good public transport. Keep ticket prices reasonable and stop catering to soccer moms. Hopefully Philly will do that when it's their turn.
Montreal would have been great. I hate to see the potential of soccer in this nation (i.e. NYC_2 bid and now Montreal) refuse to bid. I appears that the better the bid, the more likely they will pull out.
Miami is definitely getting a team regardless of the fanbase or not. MLS cannot turn down Barca (I am not for the Miami move BTW).
The three real contenders are Portland, Vancouver and St. Louis. I think Portland would get it.
We think it is a safe bet that if Portland gets in you will have a full stadium of 20,000.
It seems to me the 36 million included upgrades to the stadium. Assuming they were going to spend 10-15 mil on upgrades that leaves the ex[ansion fee at 21-26 mil. Unacceptable.
I'm with the last poster. I actually thought NY2 and Montreal were the two best bids but now it's a few months on and they're both out. Sucks!
Portland and Vancouver are the best for expansion. Both have a great team and a better fan base!
Canada should definitely be included in the league. Canada is basically the 51st state. No offense Canada. We are all in the same hemisphere so let’s play soccer! I think we should think outside the box and have a team from Mexico too. Chivis Mexico! (Even though I hate chivis).
Go Portland Timbers FC!!! and Vancouver too.
I'm guessin' that the league would be alot happier if STL's stadium deal wasn't outside the city, on farmland, with NO public transportation, ala Dallas and Colorado (see corresponding attendance levels). Still, IF the pockets involved are deep enough, they're automatic. The league has wanted a team there from day 1, and supporters in Chicago and, I assume, KC are licking their chops at the idea of those games. STL United would break ground on their stadium within minutes of being approved (They also want their house built for their WPS team).
Portland still has to get the public funding/infrastructure part of their PGE Park upgrade deal set with the city fathers in Portland (Plus find a new location for and then build a new house for the minor league baseball team that Paulson owns that also plays at PGE). That will happen, but it takes time. Just ask the folks in Huston, New Jersey, KC, SLC, etc.
So the Timbers might have to wait two years. Maybe.
Miami: "Money doesn't talk, it swears."-Bob Dylan. With MTL out, it looks awfully good for Barca, Fla. They will seriously fund and manage a franchise.
As far as attendance in MTL, or anywhere else USL teams play going to the MLS, remember, TFC came out like gangbusters even though the USL Toronto Lynx they supplanted averaged about 2,700 people a match for years. The Seattle Sounders, version USL, averaged 3,300 in 2007 and 2008 (when they knew they were going to MLS).
Still doin't think ATL attendance would be strong.
Steve the arsonist
I have no sympathy for this group. You haggle when you are the only buyer, but there were plenty of others with just as much credibility if not more than Montreal. Sounds like Montreal has that pomposity from their French counterparts.
You shouldn't ever wish bad things on other people but:
1- I wish Vancouver don't get in and stay with us in the USL
2- I wish those unworthy jerks in Miami fail again with a second team
3- I wish that piece of trash Garber and the MLS gets bankrupt!
45 mil with stadium expansion seems fair to me.. dont price yerself out Garber..
A 40M$ expansion fees is for the greedy. Saputo and co. can spend the 40M$ elsewhere.
MLS needs to develop it's own identity. Allowing for the creation of Chivas USA was a huge mistake, allowing Barca to come will only double that mistake.
MLS also needs to focus on the US markets. If there is anyone with common sense working at MLS HQ the next two teams will be Portland and St. Louis
Agree w/ last poster. Portland/Vancouver and St. Louis seem to be the best choices now. Don't turn MLS into an automatic AA league. If we have our own identity then one day we can get the players to put us in the same place as the best leagues in the world.
Everybody is being so hard on Garber. He didn't make all of these rules. The expansion committee is made up of existing investors in the league and they are going to do what is in their best interests. This is all about what is best for the investors just like any other business. Why would they settle for less money when you have other bids that will pay up? I actually wanted to see Montreal in. The idea of having the french speaking population involved in MLS is very exciting. What Saputo should have done is expand his ownership group like Vancouver did. If he added a few more investors to help split the cost and share the risk then he would have benefited in the long run. When it comes down to it I don't care who gets in as long as it is good for the league.
The last poster makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for posting something well thought out (not the the other posts didn't have merit, mind you) I am unsure, however, how the Saputos could have expanded their his ownership group...they're already partnering with George Gillet who's bloody rich as well... I don't think there's anyone else rich enough in this province who would be willing to spend that kind of money.
Well, I am honestly not sure what to think here. I just hope Garber and MLS know what they're doing, and this doesn't turn out to be a mistake.
I will say that MLS is in a precarious position. Here are a few thoughts:
The League's Hands are Tied - One would like to think that MLS did the math, and determined the MTL bid just doesn't have that much more upside than the other bidding cities. Thus, the bid doesn't have the potential to be worth than the $3.5M discount (or whatever the sum is) that MTL wants. After all, MLS is much more concerned with finding the best market, which will serve the league well for many years to come, which will obviously pay dividends much larger than the expansion fee.
Having said all that, MLS may have very well thought MTL IS worth the discount they want. But if MLS grants MTL a discount, all the sudden the once firm $40M fee is now negotiable for every city bidding.
Plus, MTL wanted to enter the league with a 13,000 seat stadium. MLS is trying to establish itself as a top league in the American sporting landscape. A 13k seat arena comprised of bleacher seats screams 2nd-rate minor league baseball, and cannot offer fans the MLS experience the league is aiming for. And again, if you bend on this issue for MTL, others may request time to upgrade their stadium. Before you know it, both bids have great plans to upgrade their stadiums, which fans will see happen by 2014. Just ask San Jose fans who expected a stadium by next year.
So MTL may very well may be the best bid from a long-term perspective, but MLS must establish minimums, and I for one am happy to see MLS stick to its guns. Only time will tell if it's the right move.
MLS, run by the Krafts and co are afraid of soccer. They want to keep it in check. They don't want it to get to big and threaten their precious NFL investments. Next round look for Atlanta and Miami. Sad. More pathetic crowds on their way in.
Montreal and Portland would have been the perfect fit for MLS. Rabid fanbases to add to LAG, Seattle, and TFC. That's the last thing Garber and Kraft want tho. You'll see.
Sorry to see Montreal go; but the price is the price and thats that. I think Miami and STL will get their teams.
As for all the Miami bashers, you are nothing but ignorant of the facts. Were any of you here when The Fusion was playing? Did any of you see the last season where Attendance was up? It wasn't the fans that made the team fail it was the ownership that didn't have the pockets to stick it out. At the end of the day Miami will get their team because Miami deserves a team and now with a real ownership group this team will suceed. Bashers only wished they lived in Miami, this is the place to be, any Soccer player will preffer Miami over any team in MLS and thats a fact.
November 24, 10:18 pm
Nice to see Ruud Gullit has found this great website
Hey, shut your mouth. Start you own league and leave the small crowds to us.
I've heard that the Canadians are against a Miami team because it would be too far away. I've also heard that Vancouver, because it's in Canada and we all know how big Canada is and that's why they can't start their own league, is insisting that it won't ever have to play games at Red Bull, New England and Philly.
Seriously why should Montreal join MLS? They fill their stadium are in the quarterfinals of the Champions League and control their own squad and finances now without the heavy hand of socialism intervening.
I'm Canadian. I'm anti-Miami not because of distance, but because of the Barca connection.
Also, a Canadian league will not work with only 3-6 suitable markets for a league the calibre between MLS-USL1. It has nothing to do with distance.
Surely every other expansion bid has a $40 million US expansion fee + stadium/stadium upgrade, right? I would love to see Montreal in the league, but if they thought they could get it on the cheap by shaving a few million I don't think that is fair to the other bids. Maybe if the economic downturn gets even worse and starts to make the other bids balk at the fee then there might be a different situation.
Anon 9:04,
They want to join MLS because it's the best competition in North America. They'd sacrifice control (which they'd get back, since MLS is moving away for single-entity) to be in the top-flight.
Bottom Line...Montreal will get in some day, just not now.
http://www.montrealimpact.com/News/News.aspx?language=EN&ArticleID=1031&Focus=0
Joey Saputo's own words. He has not burned the bridge. The Impact made what they thought would be a sound business decision for themselves, but MLS didn't think it was good enough for them. Bottom line.
At least Montreal still has a franchise. Even if it is USL1.
In this economic climate MLS will simply be lucky not to contract again. What were the overnights for the MLS Cup? Were they over a 1.0?
November 24, 2008 10:18 PM
Did you take your pill today?.....
OK just checking..
Seriously these consparicy theories of Americans trying to keep the sport of soccer unpopular are F*ng ludicrous!
I love soccer and wish MLS will be what the NFL is today. But I'm realistic and I know that will never happen. The Super bowl ratings are the highest rating show of any sport in this country. And if you saw the MLS Cup this weekend on TV the HDC was only 3/4 full(even though Garber claims they sold out)dont know what the reatings were but I'll bet money it was no where near what the super bowl draws.
Theres no argument there PUT THE BONG DOWN AND STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBAORD.
The most telling thing on this story is when he said, "It wouldn't be affordable for families."
BOOM goes the argument that Montreal would be another Toronto.
They are basing their revenue model on the kind of cheap family entertainment that has worked soooo well in New England and Kansas City.
Pass. On. This. Please.
Montreal is not Toronto.
Portland is.
MLS is on very solid ground. Anyone talking of contraction has no clue.
Relocation might be possibly but contraction, not a chance. Too many people willing to plunk down 30-40 million for a team.
Portland is not Toronto. It's Portland. And that's fine with me.
Be what you are. Which is a challenge if you're Canadian, come to think of it.
Earth to mooner lander...
There is a financial crisis which is rocking the world...Bannks can't finance big business anymore and credit will be tight for years. We are heading towards record job-losses in the US and Canada...Disposable income will be scarce...40 million 12 months ago maybe....but the Year to date the S&P 500 is down 42.2%...its all about the dollars..half of the teams bidding will not be able to finance there purchases. We need to take a reality pill. With current mkt conditions I expect expansion will be delayed by the league.
Expansion should slow down. it's exciting to ponder what markets would be best and how big the league can grow, but eight teams in six years seems like a lot for a league that has small fan base.
Soccer sucks. MLS is a minor league.
To the ridiculous poster who said Vancouver is griping about playing in NY, NE & Philly...
Did you just guzzle six gallons of paint thinner? Are you high?
Vancouver is already playing in a league that has teams in Rochester, Miami and PUERTO RICO!
Vancouver's travel costs in MLS will be roughly the same (if not less) than what they currently shell out for in the USL.
Trust me, this is a bid that is stacked with cash from the high tech sector. Steve Nash is probably the least wealthy of the lot.
Stop spreading ridiculous rumors when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Leave it Toronto to show y'all what true football supporters are like. MLS needs Canada.
MLS Final: painful, especially since the Torino-Milan game was being broadcast live at the same time.
I believe that the MLS is an over-rated product and as such can't justify a four fold increase of the expansion costs in less than 3 years. Attendance, tv coverage and revenues are down and the product on the field is not up to par for what it calls itself i.e. a premier league.
The USL is outperforming the MLS in CCL and has a league structure that is stronger and more conducive to a higher level of competition.
The Montreal Impact were correct in forcing the MLS hand to negotiate a fairer entrance fee. 40M is way too high.
If the MLS had performed better over the course of the past 10 years, I could understand a 40M entrance fee. But it hasn't.
I believe the USL has an excellent opportunity to solidify itself as a competitive league that can hold its own against its pretentious rivals, the MLS.
Also, MLS commissioner Garber has demonstrated what I would qualify as a holier than thou attitude when it came to evaluate potential MLS suitors. His comments about the Ottawa bid were completely indicative of his ignorance about the Ottawa bid.
I wish Ottawa good luck but Ottawa is what I would call a very small market, without a stadium or a field and without a team at a top level, i.e. USL D-1. Garber sees more potential in Ottawa it would seem than in Montreal. Garber is simply attracted by the 'glare and shine' of the 40M Ottawa is willing to pay.
Garber on the one hand eulogizes Ottawa without a stadium and on the other hand refuses to negotiate with Montreal since Montreal placed its bid on Oct 15. No even a call.
Again, I reiterate: the 40M expansion is ridiculously high, the MLS has a very long way to go to be a TRUE tier 1 league and as such should look a more progressive expansion process.
In a recent radio interview with Tony Marinaro of Team 990 radio in Montreal, Jack Bell soccer sports columnist at the NY Times said that Garber doesn't like Joey Saputo, Impact President, very much. He was quite clear about this.
I wonder if Garber is simply holding a grudge versus the Impact and, in the process, is losing a unique opportunity of having a MLS franchise in Montreal.
I say: tough luck for the MLS. The asking price is way off. It isn't worth it. USL teams are better 'teams' when it comes to competing at a higher level. The CCL championship has proven this. Only 1 MLS team has advanced while both USL teams have advanced.
Its time the USL flexes its muscle and continues to perform at a higher level than its 'so-called' superior MLS rivals.
I don't see MLS improving very much for the foreseable future. On the field that is. It may succeed commercially but all the marketing hype doesn't seem to improve the product 'on the field' what with the Red Bulls with a pathetically poor season record advancing to the MLS championship.
Sad.