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Not long ago there were a few guys with a dream of having an MLS club in their city banded together, organized, courted the media, the league and would be investors while their numbers continued to grow and their media footprint increased. This culminated in the awarding of the 16th MLS club to Philadelphia and much rejoicing among the aforementioned group of guys, known simply as the Sons of Ben who now number in the thousands.
Today we see signs that the same is taking place within the 5 boroughs of New York City as a group of guys known simply as the Borough Boys seem to be meeting all the right faces, from MLS Commish Don Garber to recent rumors of a high level meeting having taken place with would-be New York City FC investor-operator Fred Wilpon and a New York City councilman.
Suffice to say the Borough Boys are following a similar course and pressing the flesh of all the right people in power. Hopefully more media will now take notice, we've been suportive of their cause and wish them the best and hope they give us progress reports as their campaign continues. These are exciting times in New York City.
Before there are cries of, "New York doesn't need ANOTHER team." "They should just support the Red Bulls" start up again, we would like to reply with our points of view on this issue which you can skip if you saw them here the first time, if not then read on:
To understand why a "2nd" team in the New York Metro area makes sense you must understand the five points below:
1. New York City is Different. New York City is an urban, densely populated, mostly car less city. In other words many New Yorkers who live in NYC proper DO NOT OWN A CAR OR DRIVE. This is key to understanding why asking them to make their way to New Jersey is a non-starter. Most New Yorkers thinking of New Jersey as "far". Naming the team that Red Bull bought, New York does not make it so, for that very reason. They might as well be playing in Harrisburg, PA, or on the Moon for that matter. They'd be just as irrelevant as they are now to most of the CITY of New York. This is why RBNY is mostly ignored by the sporting press and off the radar for most fans of the sport in New York City.
2. The Original Plan. Two teams in the New York area was in the original plan for MLS, just as Philadelphia and St Louis was. This explains why the Commissioner, Don Garber has said the same with regards to New York "2" as he has with Philadelphia and St Louis: "It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when." Some see NY2 as Don Garber's pet project, but in reality the plans for a team and derby rival to MetroStars/RedBulls was laid out before a ball was ever kicked.
3. Identity. Because of point #1, the bulk of the people a team in New York City proper would draw from would never have identified with Red Bull New York. The reason as was mentioned above, is cultural. New York is a cosmopolitan, urban, get on the subway/take a train, city. Put a team on the 7 line and you will need to build a 30,000 seat stadium for it. Put it in New Jersey and well.....you see the result. New Yorkers will never identify with something which reeks of New Jersey from the location down to the way the team has historically been promoted as suburban family fun.
4. Economics/Population Density. New York City has been called by Don Garber, MLS's largest untapped market. Why? See point #3 above. With such a large market to draw from MLS would be foolish to pass it up in favor of some other expansion candidates. We have seen very little in the way of New York area soccer fans interested in MLS BECAUSE MLS is not in New York City yet, not the reverse. The same could have been said about Toronto prior to MLS coming. You saw an excellent and vocally pro-USA crowd at the USA vs Argentina match at Giants Stadium but those same people who made up the nearly 80,000 who attended that match either do not know about Red Bull New York or care about Red Bull New York for the simple face that its not in New York. Does this sound small or provincial to you? Perhaps it does, until you realize just how densely packed the city is. At nearly 19 million people New York City to put this in perspective, if New York City were a country in Europe and if it qualified in Euro2008 would be the 7th most populous country in the tournament with a population greater than that of Holland. That's a lot of people. A lot of people with a lot of dollars who currently don't care about MLS. For this reason, contrary to the conventional wisdom of many who can not see past the end of their nose, the 2nd team in the New York Metro area would not "split Red Bull NY's" fanbase. It would likely actually add to their attendance during derby matches with the New York City based team. Likewise, in a derby people would be forced to chose a side and we suspect many New Jersey fans of the sport would throw in their lot with Red Bull.
5. The Borough Boys. Just as Philadelphia and the constant talk about it being in MLS for over a decade eventually spawned a grassroots group of rowdies to drum up support in every corner of the city, then nation, then globe, the constant talk of NY2 has spawned a similar band of brothers known as the Borough Boys. They are in the mold of Philadelphia's Sons Of Ben in that they are fan advocates for MLS in their city and will in the days ahead be increasing their visibility to put the focus on the fact that New York City needs MLS and MLS needs New York City to be truly the league many imagine it to become in the next decade. MLS has the road map, New York City has the interest and money to support the team, the Borough Boys are a catalyst.
We'd hope that the next time the tired arguments against the inevitable are brought up you'd refer to the text above.
One flaw in the tiered argument above. Unless I'm mistaken, and that is a decent possibility, the Red Bulls play in Giants stadium. Many-a-New Yorkers travel that same "far" distance to watch the Giants play - so I'm not sure that part of your argument holds up. Maybe if they didn't suck so much and consistently far WAY below expectations, people wouldn't mind the trip. I'm okay with everything else.
Move Columbus to NY2!
yeah, but the only difference between Giants/Jets and the Red Bulls is that both NFL teams started in NYC proper to drum up support. Giants used to play at the polo grounds then yankee stadium after that. The Jets at Shea stadium. Many New Yorkers remember those days, and those that dont, hear the stories. There is actually a good portion of NYC that still supports the SF Giants and the LA Dodgers b/c they started in NYC. To place a team in NJ, call it NY, and expect NYers to travel to support it isnt going to happen. Give NYC a team.
the giants and jets only play 8 games each in east rutherford, and there are, and probably will always be way more nfl fans than mls fans. nyrb play more than double that. weak point.
id love to see a new york city fc. someone needs to challenge la galaxy for the "biggest club" title.
What do you expect? If you make the same tired points don't be suprised to get the same tired arguments. Giants Stadium isn't always empty, just when Red Bull play there. NY Red Bull has put a terible product on the field.
Interested to see where the Red Bull go. They are getting a new stadium and have a DP spot opening. NY is a place to bring a big star into a new stadium.
A second team in NY would be great if it was done right, I do agree with most of your points. But,MLS don't need a Chivas NY. It seems like NY has had a hard time getting stadiums built, are the Nets ever coming to NYC? Unless you have a stadium plan you got nothin and are behind Montreal and even Portland.
Go Borough Boys, wooohooo
I am a Borough Boy, New Jersey Sucks!
I think the biggest problem for a second team is getting a stadium built in one of the buroughs. With the density there is the problem of no land being available. There is a reason teams from NYC have to play in Jersy. The Nets and the Jets would love to move into NYC proper and they have been trying for years to, but that involves tearing something else down and that is normally not politically feasible.
I agree with the previous commenter: unless New York City can present $40 million for the franchise fee AND provide a new, soccer specific stadium immediately, then they should have to wait behind St. Louis, Montreal, Vancouver and Portland for a new team. Of course, there is always the possibility of a team being moved from one locale to another...
The sons of ben actually had very little to do with the Philadelphia decision.
In this money game, you all can't really believe that some fan group is going to make the case for a city if the business case doesn't make sense.
NY is already a suitable market. The fan group does little to nothing to impact prospects there.
i have an idea:
get off your asses and support the team you do have instead of sitting around and bitching. meadowlands is 45 minutes away- boo hoo. i drive an hour and a half each way to see my team, does that mean we need a second team?
there are so many other cities that want a team and one wont get one if nyc2 happens
to the first anon:
"Many-a-New Yorkers travel that same "far" distance to watch the Giants play - so I'm not sure that part of your argument holds up."
First of all you're comparing an MLS team to a league that goes back with 90 years of history. Not smart.
Second, most of the people that travel to Giants stadium to watch the Jets and Giants, drive from Connecticut, Long Island, New Jersey and upwards of NYC. Most NYC fans don't get out there much at all, if ever.
If the Borough Boys aren't willing to make the "far" drive to support redbulls. Why should MLS deprive other expansion candidates? What they should do is make the drive to giant stadium, and show there support for soccer. If the commisioner and potential investor see this they might be able to get a team sooner than latter.
How wouldn't NY2 be good for the league in the long run? Big, big city with a diverse, soccer loving, population. Or should the league continue to give the teams to small markets, like columbus and salt lake?
Why you want to put down Salt Lake? RSL has a new stadium under construction and they draw 15000 per game. This team gives Portland and Vancouver hope for an expansion team. Continue picking on Colombous, they deserve it. RSL is a success.
"If the Borough Boys aren't willing to make the "far" drive to support redbulls. Why should MLS deprive other expansion candidates? What they should do is make the drive to giant stadium, and show there support for soccer."
Wow. You're dense. Do you not read? They don't have cars. How are they supposed to drive? And why would they support the team they are already natural rivals of? They view them as a New Jersey soccer mom team, thus they want what there never has been, a New York City team.
Wake up. A 30,000 seater in NYC next to the new Mets stadium would me MASSIVE for this league. It would be nuts.
If LA can have 2 team that DC United can own, why shouldn't NY?
The sons of ben actually had very little to do with the Philadelphia decision.
In this money game, you all can't really believe that some fan group is going to make the case for a city if the business case doesn't make sense.
NY is already a suitable market. The fan group does little to nothing to impact prospects there.
July 19, 2008 1:20 PM
Everyone from Commissioner Garber to Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendel to the ownership group have cited the Sons of Ben as being part of the reason Philly made sense.
You can have all the focus groups and market research studies in the world but having a real world group of people as vocal as the Sons of Ben were ready to que up for season tickets is another thing altogether.
It is *active* fans in MLS circa 2008 that make a market viable, think of it as the "Toronto lesson".
No a fan group isn't going to make the case for a city that doesn't make business sense but a large active fan group can be indicative of a large active fan base and in that respect can be pivotal in getting people "on the fence" who question whether "if we build it will they come?" down off of it.
So fan groups like the SOBs and Borough Boys do in fact serve a purpose.
"They don't have cars. How are they supposed to drive? And why would they support the team they are already natural rivals of?"
Wow. Some kind of excuse. You cant support a team that is representing New York. But Beckham comes to town, and a flock of 66,000 and 47,000 "fans" mysteriously make there way to giant stadium. Whats your excuse going to be if the NY2 team don't get good attendance "the MLS level of play isn't good enough"
You can make excuses all you want. I dont think a team in New York city is a bad thing. If you can't support the only New York team you have your just going find more excusses with the a team there.
Well if NYC cant make it to a RBNY game because they don't have cars they can stay in home and play stick ball.
I will participate in this endless circle of the same arguments for one last time and hopefully sum it all up.
Without a stadium proposal, NYC2 hasn't got nothing. I don't think anyone wants to see 2 teams in the same stadium. If NYC2 comes up with a proposed new stadium they won't have to wait for expansion. There could be up to 7 teams that would love to be in the rich NYC market.
The dream is becoming reality : NYCFC in MLS by 2011 !!!
Borough Boys forever.
I am a die-hard Jets fan and have never made it out to Giants Stadium to see a regular season game. The combination of travel, pricing and somehow getting a car (people fail to understand that most NYCers don't own cars - nothing to do with driving. Find me a good parking space with little traffic and i'll get one, ok).
I hate when people compare MLS to the NFL, as if there is any remote comparison. You're talking about 8 home games in the most popular sport. Not to mention, most of that crowd comes from Jersey, CT, Westchester and so on (people who regularly drive). A more applicable comparison would be MLS to NBA and NHL. When we do that, we can understand why RBNY, Devils and Nets fail. Both NJ teams couldn't sell out recent playoff tickets. The DEvils smartly moved to Newark, giving them more identity. The Nets are going to Brooklyn. If NBA and NHL can't make it in the meadowlands, HOW CAN THE MLS?
It isn't a distance problem, but an identity question that in soccer is fundamental aspect.
Simply New Jersey isn't New York City !!!
I think the reason this rumor keeps poping up is because of the lack of a presence in the most populated part of the US, I mean the entire Atlantic coast. MLS needs NY. MLS needs a stadium in Boston and DC. That's why MLS jumps at expansion into Philly.
All North American sports leagues are more attractive to a television audience when these markets are successfull. I think the biggest problem with NYRB is they are terrible, if they had more success there would be more support. Interested to see how Red Bull Park turns out.
It's hilarious that people say "move Columbus"--anyone who says this knows nothing about MLS and nothing about the business of professional sports.
Columbus plays in a SOCCER SPECIFIC STADIUM. They have a shirt sponsor, the holding company that uses the stadium for concerts is profitable, they're in the black. I don't see why people think that a game that draws 14k in Columbus is a failure but one that draws 18k in Houston or DC is a success. That Houston/DC game lost a lot of money, and those teams have no stadium from which to generate revenue. And playing in rented stadiums doesn't help the league's image, either.
And Columbus is outdrawing San Jose and KC...once again, in a SOCCER SPECIFIC STADIUM. Yet people want to move Columbus?? Stop buying into the MLS Rumors BS and think for yourself.
You don't need an MBA to figure this stuff out, just common sense.
dsarf
im so sick of this argument. if you dont live in NYC proper you should shut your mouth. Maybe we shouldnt have put a team in Philly since its only 1hr 40min from the Meadowlands. Because thats the kind of commute a new yorker w/o a car has to go to get to see the RB's play. Especially those who live in either Bronx, Brooklyn, or Queens.