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We at MLSR have posted quite a few stories about the expansion possibilities of a team in New York City. We are hesitant of saying 2nd team in New York City because currently no MLS team plays there. That's right. We do not count the Red Bulls because Red Bull New York's footprint within the city of New York is almost non-existent. Many New York City footy fanaticos have no idea there is even a professional MLS team in New York. Because....there isn't. There's a team which plays in New Jersey and whose marketing for most of its existence turned off the kind of hard core football fan that you see in cities like Washington DC, Toronto and Houston.
Cue the hemming and hawing from the center of the country, the south, Canada and other places not familiar with the unique geo/political/social/psychological rift between New York City and New Jersey (and the rest of the country). "Why don't they just get in their car and drive to Giants Stadium/Red Bull Park." "Why are they so lazy they can't bother going to support the team they HAVE." So that we don't have to repeat the same thing over and over this "New York 2 FAQ" will be included in a link in every posting we make about the 2nd club in the New York area, as we expect these stories to become more frequent in the days, weeks and months ahead from what we've been hearing.
To understand why a "2nd" team in the New York Metro area makes sense you must understand the five points below:
1. New York City is Different. New York City is an urban, densely populated, mostly car less city. In other words many New Yorkers who live in NYC proper DO NOT OWN A CAR OR DRIVE. This is key to understanding why asking them to make their way to New Jersey is a non-starter. Most New Yorkers thinking of New Jersey as "far". Naming the team that Red Bull bought, New York does not make it so, for that very reason. They might as well be playing in Harrisburg, PA, or on the Moon for that matter. They'd be just as irrelevant as they are now to most of the CITY of New York. This is why RBNY is mostly ignored by the sporting press and off the radar for most fans of the sport in New York City.
2. The Original Plan. Two teams in the New York area was in the original plan for MLS, just as Philadelphia and St Louis was. This explains why the Commissioner, Don Garber has said the same with regards to New York "2" as he has with Philadelphia and St Louis: "It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when." Some see NY2 as Don Garber's pet project, but in reality the plans for a team and derby rival to MetroStars/RedBulls was laid out before a ball was ever kicked.
3. Identity. Because of point #1, the bulk of the people a team in New York City proper would draw from would never have identified with Red Bull New York. The reason as was mentioned above, is cultural. New York is a cosmopolitan, urban, get on the subway/take a train, city. Put a team on the 7 line and you will need to build a 30,000 seat stadium for it. Put it in New Jersey and well.....you see the result. New Yorkers will never identify with something which reeks of New Jersey from the location down to the way the team has historically been promoted as suburban family fun.
4. Economics/Population Density. New York City has been called by Don Garber, MLS's largest untapped market. Why? See point #3 above. With such a large market to draw from MLS would be foolish to pass it up in favor of some other expansion candidates. We have seen very little in the way of New York area soccer fans interested in MLS BECAUSE MLS is not in New York City yet, not the reverse. The same could have been said about Toronto prior to MLS coming. You saw an excellent and vocally pro-USA crowd at the USA vs Argentina match at Giants Stadium but those same people who made up the nearly 80,000 who attended that match either do not know about Red Bull New York or care about Red Bull New York for the simple face that its not in New York. Does this sound small or provincial to you? Perhaps it does, until you realize just how densely packed the city is. At nearly 19 million people New York City to put this in perspective, if New York City were a country in Europe and if it qualified in Euro2008 would be the 7th most populous country in the tournament with a population greater than that of Holland. That's a lot of people. A lot of people with a lot of dollars who currently don't care about MLS. For this reason, contrary to the conventional wisdom of many who can not see past the end of their nose, the 2nd team in the New York Metro area would not "split Red Bull NY's" fanbase. It would likely actually add to their attendance during derby matches with the New York City based team. Likewise, in a derby people would be forced to chose a side and we suspect many New Jersey fans of the sport would throw in their lot with Red Bull.
5. The Borough Boys. Just as Philadelphia and the constant talk about it being in MLS for over a decade eventually spawned a grassroots group of rowdies to drum up support in every corner of the city, then nation, then globe, the constant talk of NY2 has spawned a similar band of brothers known as the Borough Boys. They are in the mold of Philadelphia's Sons Of Ben in that they are fan advocates for MLS in their city and will in the days ahead be increasing their visibility to put the focus on the fact that New York City needs MLS and MLS needs New York City to be truly the league many imagine it to become in the next decade. MLS has the road map, New York City has the interest and money to support the team, the Borough Boys are a catalyst.
We'd hope that the next time the tired arguments against the inevitable are brought up you'd refer to the text above.
If New Yorkers don't identify with Red Bull, why did they identify with the Cosmos who also played at the Meadowlands?
Won't the new stadium be more accessible? Doesn't NYRB have the rights to another NY franchise? Aren't there like 20 people in the Boroug boys?
While I agree the another team in NY should happen, I think it should be one of the last in expansion.
My understanding is that the Cosmos started out playing in NY on Randalls Island and as for Red Bull owning the franchise rights. There were two franchise rights for NY city since the beginning, the Metrostars owned both but when Red Bull bought them they only bought the rights to one franchise so when the other rights expire in 2009 or 2010 (I forget when), MLS can sell them to another entity. Red Bull has no interest in keeping both franchise rights as their entry into the league was contigent on them giving up rights to the 2nd club when they expired.
20 People is more than the Sons Of Ben started out with.
Red Bull Park will be accessible via NJ Path which can easily be accesed by subway in Manhattan. Giant's Stadium is a headache and a half to reach. Hopefully by the end of 2009 and the beginning of the 2010 season people will realize that RBP is easily accessible and that there's an incredibly state of the art facility for them to watch soccer in the (somewhat) NY Metro area.
I couldn't agree more. I work out of 'The City' one week every month. Owning a car is absurd and if you can't get somewhere after a subway or bus ride, New Yorkers ain't going.
The biggest hurdle is that putting a soccer-specific stadium in one of the 5 boroughs will be mightily expense, if you compare it to the cost of the New Yankees stadium [$1.3 Billon].
MLS really has to move away from the "suburban family fun" thing if it wants to be taken seriously. It really does.
If there's any actual place to BUILD in NYC, I'm all for it. The US-Argentina was a good example of true NY fans. You can't tell me that suddenly 78,000 New Jerseyians started liking soccer. i dont buy that. The Red Bulls should just fold, or move somewhere. Too bad they have a stadium deal, though. What needs to happen (but cannot, since both teams have stadium deals) is have the Red Bulls move to the City, and have KC move to St. Louis. Then there's room for Portland and Montreal in expansion, and maybe even Vancouver and Miami or Phoenix.
The league does not tell clubs how they should market themselves. That's left up to the individual clubs. That's why DC or Chicago appealled to a more adult fan base of football fans while Colorado, The Metrostars, Columbus, New England and others appealled to the youth soccer/family crowd which did little to boost their attendance.
That's also why Houston and Toronto were successful right from the start. They treated the club as a real club and league as a real place for adult football fans to enjoy themselves. You've seen Columbus's front office try to replicate that and you hear similar things from Seattle, Philly and RSL's Front Offices.
And I agree. 2011 will be the right time for NY2.
I am Italian ( Naples ) and my dream is only one : to see a true soccer team in NYC by 2011, simply because is absurd that the most important city in the world hasn't a soccer team in the most important sport in the world.
I know the Borough Boys ( they aren't 20.... ) and I can say that they are an young and exceptional group and that they deserve a stadium and a soccer team in Queens !!!
Wilpon give us a dream :YOU PUT A NYC SOCCER TEAM IN MLS BY 2011 !!!!!
Thank you BOROUGH BOYS !!!!
so to recap
redbulls have screwed up new york.
so lets start again.
If it is so easy to put another team in (actually in) new york why did the red bulls not move back from jersey earlier?
I'm not trying to say you are wrong but there is one important point to make about your arguments. New York does not have the population you mention of nearly 19 million; rather, the city has 8.2 million (still a large amount). If you want your arguments to be taken seriously you cannot both claim that the residents of the city will not support a "suburban" team like RBNY and then include that suburban population in your estimation of the New York population.
Only in their dreams are the Borough Boys anything like the Sons of Ben. Thats like MLS wanting be like the EPL. So someday, sure.
New Yorkers never had any trouble relating to the Giants or Jets....
I think it's a fairly weak excuse...if you're a fan of soccer/football you watch what you can. Hell I got and watch college games because there's nothing else near me...and still do road trips.
Jumping on a train for 30 minutes is no great inconvenience, and would save the cost of parking at Meadowlands....
NFL is a different beast all together, so to use Giants and Jets as an example is bad. And before they were in the Meadowlands both teams played in NYC to build a fan base. Thats why they are NY teams. You cant put a team in NJ and call it NY. Also, its pretty obvious you arent from NYC because nothing is a 30 minute train ride. It takes 30 minutes(and im being generous, real generous) to take the train from the upper east side to the lower west side, let alone going to NJ coming from Manhattan or one of the other 4 boroughs. This is strictly from a fan point of view, from a business perspective in growing the league is a completly different story. Anything that happens west of the Hudson will never make as much noise as something that happens east of the Hudson, its just the way it is. You wanna make noise for the league it has to take place in the media capital of the world. When there is a game, the subways should be packed with jerseys. People that arent going to the game should be pissed that they arent going and that they have to wait in traffic and stand on a packed subway ie Mets and Yankees games. NYC2 will give the league more media, just as the Rangers will always get more coverage than the Devils, and the Knicks, while horrible, will always get more coverage than the Nets(until they move to Brooklyn that is). Its been said before and i'll say it again, NYC needs MLS and MLS needs NYC.
Well said at 2:56.
I am a Brooklyn resident and a Red Bull season ticket holder, but not because I love the franchise. I don't. It's the only game close enough ... though not close enough. The trip to and from Brooklyn via public transport is ridiculous, and the catering to suburban soccer moms and families sucks a lot of fun out of the matches.
I'm hoping that some day in the not-too-distant future we'll get an MLS team here in the city.
And yes, the Cosmos used to play on Randall's Island and built their fan base in the city first. I know, because I was lucky enough to see them as a kid.
Does anyone from Rumors actually come from New York?
Tons of likely good faith misunderstandings about the city. Any MLS team in Queens will have the same challenges building their fan base as all other teams in the league. 30,000 seat stadium filled? Not a chance.
Some ironies here...many people in Manhattan consider Queens to be the suburbs (lived in both boroughs by the way, Brooklyn and the Bronx too) and not in the heart of the city. Shea Stadium is just as close to Long Island as it is to Manhattan maybe closer. The new Red Bulls stadium is just about as close to Times Square as Shea Stadium is. When Mets FC starts up they will have most of Queens and all of Long Island, Red Bulls will have all of North Jersey, their current city fan base, and the rest of NYC will be up for grabs.
There is no Jersey psychological barrier. It's all about the team. Forget the Jets and Giants, the Yankees would be building their new stadium in Jersey if the Bronx deal had fallen through. And Cosmos built their city fan base in the Meadowlands, there was no fan base before Pele (I know they played for a while with Pele in the city). After some initial curiosity the city media will treat Mets FC as a niche sports item.
19 million people in the apple? Not half that.
Finally, and this is just my opinion, you insult the SOB by comparing them to the 'Boys. Whatever they started out with the Philly folks turned their club into a movement. Not trying to insult anyone but the 'Boys appear to be just a handfull of well intentioned people. Only time will tell if they will grow into half of what the SOB are.